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16 December 2009 @ 11:22 pm
nothing says "happy holidays" like zombies  
Yup. Finally, I have seen the latest Clone Wars episode, "Brain Invaders." Why they didn't air these two episodes around Halloween, I'll never know.

So, I normally write these commentaries while I'm actually watching the show, and that's what I'm doing now; I pause periodically to get my oh-so-important thoughts about every minute scene out there. (LOL. Important. Of course.) Also, ugh it took me over two hours to do this, because the internet died in the middle and then I had to load it all the way through what I'd seen on my first try to finish the episode. Fail.

Anyway, this time around, we start with the crazy overview at the very beginning of the episode!

- The announcer's emphasis on the destruction of Queen Karina's Temple reminded me of something that I forgot to mention in my last post, which is this: Karina is not only the Queen and the Mother of...pretty much her entire people (since they are an insect society!), but also a Goddess. So, in addition to committing a genocide, the Jedi are potentially destroying a religion.

(True story: you know you've been reading too much Trek fic when your first thought is, "Wow, the Jedi really need a Prime Directive!" But...they do!)

- "We were bred to follow orders. You got a problem with that?" Okay, I love this exchange. On one level it's your typical soldier story, with the grumbly new recruit and the hardass commander. And yet...there's that emphasis on being bred for this. Nicely played.

- I think this episode could have been a lot stronger if they hadn't shown the worm entering the clone's head at the beginning. If they'd dragged out the mystery, made people wonder if maybe some of the clones had followed Slick's lead and decided to mutiny. This would have been awesome for two reasons especially: 1) The clone who says he "doesn't have a problem" with being bred to follow orders already plays nicely, if implicitly, against Slick, who very clearly does have a problem with just that, and 2) Let's face it, in ROTS the clones do turn on the Jedi, and not because of any mind worms. Although...implanted orders in genetically engineered beings are nearly the same thing, really. So many parallels!

But no, this show doesn't believe in suspense, so we know what's happening before it even starts to happen.

- Does Ahsoka seriously sleep in those gauntlets? And that belt? On a hard metal slab? No wonder she's so restless!

- And hey, look at that! It seems this show might finally be acknowledging some of it's more fucked up aspects! (I don't count on it to last, by any means, but it's nice when it happens.) Ahsoka has no idea how to live in peace time. And the thing I really love about that scene between Ahsoka and Barriss in the cafeteria is that...Barriss doesn't know how to live in peace time, either. She's reciting the Masters' words about Jedi being "keepers of the peace, not warriors," not because she firmly believes them, or has any reason to believe them, herself, but precisely because she really doesn't. She has no experience outside of war, either, and just like Ahsoka she can't really imagine it. So all she has to fall back on are platitudes.

- Also, also, I love that even Ahsoka is beginning to realize that there can't be a place for Anakin in peace time. (Or for her, and that's what she's afraid of.) This scene reminds me of that brief "peace story" in The Things They Carried, where a soldier went AWOL but couldn't keep it up, and ended up returning to his squad because all the peace was just too much, so much that it hurt, and he wanted to hurt it back.

(Of course, they were also going for some none-too-subtle ROTS foreshadowing here, but as that doesn't actually make that much sense, I'm choosing to ignore it in favor of the implication that somebody actually realizes that Anakin has some serious war-trauma issues. Because...the literal meaning doesn't quite work. Anakin has plans for the future of the Jedi? Who knew! If he does, though, I'd be very curious about what they are! Because, foreshadowing aside, he isn't actually planning to wipe out the Order at this point in the timeline, and so this line doesn't make a whole lot of sense from Ahsoka's point of view.)

- Anakin's sneaky aside to Rex after the padawans fail to check in is...most interesting. He clearly expects Ahsoka to call, but he also clearly doesn't want Obi-Wan and the others to hear him telling Rex this. Wonder what those crazy kids are up to now...

- So...pretty basic question, but I don't think it's ever answered. Clearly the clones (and later Barriss) are under some kind of mind control from the worms. But the worms are the means of the mind control, not the active agent behind it. That was firmly established in the previous episode. So who, exactly, is actually controlling the minds? The Geonosian Queen is probably dead at this point, and even if she weren't, she's too far away to still have control over her worms. And yet the infected clones aren't mindless zombies. They have a very clear agenda. The obvious question is...where is this agenda coming from?

- When Barriss and Ahsoka are planning to split up, Barriss has this very interesting line: "If you need to, you'll do what must be done." It's obvious that she picked this phrase up from Ahsoka's earlier description of Anakin. Which is interesting, since that earlier description was clearly intended to be a creepy bit of foreshadowing to Palpatine's line of the same nature in ROTS, right before Anakin murders all the Jedi children. (Children like...Ahsoka and Barriss, actually. Connections!) And yet here, as Barriss says it, it's actually a good thing, and a quality she admires about Ahsoka.

All of this is made even more interesting by the revelation that when Barriss says "do what must be done," she does in fact mean that Ahsoka should kill her!

- I'm starting to think this episode might be a little overkill on the ROTS foreshadowing. Seriously, if clones go around flat-out saying, "If there's one thing we know, it's how to stop a Jedi"...why would the Jedi be that flabbergasted when they follow through?

- Why does Ahsoka only start trying to talk an infected person out of their mind control when that person is Barriss? Why didn't she think to try that with one of the clones after they realized what was going on with the worms? I can think of several answers (she didn't care enough, she didn't think the clones were capable of it, she actually thinks of them as "meat droids," etc.), but I don't like any of them. And, unfortunately, I can't think of one that isn't squicky.

- Oh torturer!Anakin. There's so many interesting things going on in this scene. Shades of Darth Vader, of course, but that's so obvious it doesn't need mentioning. More important is the implication (confirmation of what I've always thought, yay!) that Anakin starts turning to the Dark Side/becoming Darth Vader/falling/whatever you want to call it ENTIRELY ON HIS OWN. And, incidentally, as a direct result of the war's effect on him. (Some day I will write that meta about how turning to the Dark Side is really all about unresolved trauma.)

The brief mind trick discussion is also interesting, especially in light of the graphic mind trick torture of Cad Bane in "Children of the Force". So we learn that the other Jedi have already tried mind trick interrogation (which we can reasonably assume would have been similar to what they used on Cad Bane), but it didn't work on Poggle. So Anakin decides to take a more...classical approach to interrogation, instead.

So...basically Anakin decides to go with physical torture instead of mental and psychological torture. That's what makes him a bad Jedi.

- And speaking of torture...this whole episode reads uncomfortably like the old "slippery slope" justification for torture. A "ticking timb bomb" scenario, where the "only choice" is to get information out of a key prisoner, and the only way to do that is through torture. This trope is quite common in fiction, and has had a major impact on people's views of torture and its "necessity" in the real world. Tune in to any version of the "torture debate" and you'll see it.

- On a much more surface note...what happened to Kit Fisto's voice? I'm too lazy to see if he's the same actor in this episode as he was last season, but even if he is...he doesn't sound like Barry White anymore! I'm sorely disappointed.

- Cold!Ahsoka has maybe finally found a reason to put on some clothes? We can only hope!

- Ahsoka's waking up scene at the end is pretty interesting, too. Seems our girl's been having some nightmares.

Also, Anakin delivering the message about letting go of attachments? Priceless.
 
 
Current Mood: cynical
Current Music: zombie clones from outer space
 
 
( 27 tales told — tell a story )
ansketil_rose on December 17th, 2009 06:58 am (UTC)
More important is the implication (confirmation of what I've always thought, yay!) that Anakin starts turning to the Dark Side/becoming Darth Vader/falling/whatever you want to call it ENTIRELY ON HIS OWN. And, incidentally, as a direct result of the war's effect on him. (Some day I will write that meta about how turning to the Dark Side is really all about unresolved trauma.)

This - so much this it isn't funny. YES! I want that META!!

And the thing I really love about that scene between Ahsoka and Barriss in the cafeteria is that...Barriss doesn't know how to live in peace time, either. She's reciting the Masters' words about Jedi being "keepers of the peace, not warriors," not because she firmly believes them, or has any reason to believe them, herself, but precisely because she really doesn't. She has no experience outside of war, either, and just like Ahsoka she can't really imagine it. So all she has to fall back on are platitudes.

I loved this bit best too! And I've been thinking of writing a meta on this. In Shatterpoint Mace Windu says that the enemy isn't the Jedi but war itself, and there's that line in the RotS novel that says "by fighting at all, the Jedi lost" and that was the trap. Palpatine, with the complicity of the Jedi, turned them from diplomats into soldiers and so a generation of Jedi grew up not knowing what it really was to BE a Jedi. He made the Jedi destroy themselves, then killed them all off... *shivers*

Foreshadowing is DONE TO DEATH in Star Wars. It's like that line in in the RotS novel with Palpatine talking to Windu:

WINDU: It's over then.
PALPATINE: Perhaps. Or it could be just one more move in some greater game...

wtf, Windu? Are you not one of the wisest Jedi alive?? Isn't this kind of thing suspicious?? Aren't you going to call him on it? But, no. Windu is stupid because it makes cool foreshadowing. *facepalm*


fialleril: trauma boyfialleril on December 17th, 2009 04:04 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I really need to write that meta. I'm still (and always?) in the process of collecting my thoughts, because I want it to be very sound. (It's like my Star Wars dissertation or something, LOL.)

In the meantime, I don't know if you saw this meta? It's basically where I'm coming from with my take on wartime!Anakin.

I'm not sure that the Jedi were ever strictly diplomats (everyone in TPM seems to be intimidated by them, and they seem to be playing off of that, which indicates at least some reputation for being dangerous), but it does seem that, before the war, they walked a much finer balance between warrior and diplomat, with the warrior side of things being closer to international police than to soldiers. So the war has certainly changed their dynamics. And it doesn't help that they have no structures in place (nor do they seem interested in getting any) to deal with the mental health of the members of their order.

One wonders if Palpatine knew all he really had to do was send Anakin off to war and let him fall apart. (Since clearly he didn't have to do much of anything about the Jedi. They're perfectly capable of destroying themselves.)
betareject on December 17th, 2009 11:37 pm (UTC)
I know what you mean that bit with Barriss and Ahsoka speaking of peace was by far my favorite part of that ep. It was chilling and so upfront about how screwed up things really are (though i wonder if that was intentional or it just ended up that way). Sadly it makes me envision Ahsoka becoming like Mary-Ann (the nightmares at the end-lack of sleep earlier) all the more.

Though you know I never considered the conenctions between this scene with 'Peace Story'. But damn your so bang on with that. On that note I have to read that book again...

I doubt this has anything to do with it probably just a overlooked detail that shouldn't have been overlooked. But in the novel 'Death Troopers' there is a parasite that does basically exactly what these worms do (low and behold they even look like those worms only black in colour) but its controlled by this biological weapon the scientists within the empire had designed...I wonder if this is also the case (Palpatine pulling some strings behind the scenes????)

All I can say about your thoughts on the torture scene is THIS! m(_ _)m It still blows my mind that people think he didn't make the descent until ROTS. That he never used DS or started down that path until those final days. Or better yet that it was solely greed/lust for power that started it all...

Yeah no comment on Anakin and his final message...
fialleril: Ahsokafialleril on December 18th, 2009 08:03 pm (UTC)
For once I think the FUBARness was intentional. It was so blatant in that conversation that I don't know how it could not have been.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Palpatine-pulling-strings theory, though I do think it could work. But I'd just like to think that there are actually some things happening in the war and in the galaxy that aren't being directly controlled by him!
Stephanie: SW Barriss Offeefrostbit_sky on December 18th, 2009 02:44 am (UTC)
I liked that cafeteria discussion. I never thought the show would address that topic.

.Anakin has plans for the future of the Jedi? Who knew! If he does, though, I'd be very curious about what they are! Because, foreshadowing aside, he isn't actually planning to wipe out the Order at this point in the timeline, and so this line doesn't make a whole lot of sense from Ahsoka's point of view.)

Maybe he has plans to become a Master and changed some of the Order's codes.... like a certain one about attachment.


Anakin starts turning to the Dark Side/becoming Darth Vader/falling/whatever you want to call it ENTIRELY ON HIS OWN. And, incidentally, as a direct result of the war's effect on him. (Some day I will write that meta about how turning to the Dark Side is really all about unresolved trauma.)

YES! Pretty please with a cherry on top!

The animation was fantastic when Ahsoka and Barriss were frozen.

- On a much more surface note...what happened to Kit Fisto's voice? I'm too lazy to see if he's the same actor in this episode as he was last season, but even if he is...he doesn't sound like Barry White anymore! I'm sorely disappointed.
Oh yea! I thought he sounded different.
fialleril: Barriss Offeefialleril on December 18th, 2009 08:06 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I honestly never thought they would acknowledge it, either. Here's hoping we get some more episodes that aren't completely fail worthy!

See, I could see those being his plans, but the fact is, HE NEVER TALKS ABOUT THEM. And the audience shouldn't have to infer what those plans might be if they're a major topic of conversation. Especially since that whole line of discussion was clearly only inserted for the sake of OMG FORESHADOWING!

I will write that meta someday, I swear. :)
Stephanie: SW Barriss Offeefrostbit_sky on December 20th, 2009 07:03 pm (UTC)
Here's hoping we get some more episodes that aren't completely fail worthy!
Cheers.

See, I could see those being his plans, but the fact is, HE NEVER TALKS ABOUT THEM. And the audience shouldn't have to infer what those plans might be if they're a major topic of conversation. Especially since that whole line of discussion was clearly only inserted for the sake of OMG FORESHADOWING!


I also think it is lazy writing.
Eileen the variably sane: Ahsoka Tano ❧ Star Warscompass_ink on December 18th, 2009 06:32 am (UTC)
Okay good, I am not the ONLY PERSON who thought that the whole foundation of this episode was a giant plothole. If the queen was the one controlling the wormed people, how the heck did the clones suddenly turn--and know what side to turn to?? But the good points in this episode helped me forgive that (...though for me one of those was the lightsaber fight; it seemed very classic SW and had great sound effects).

I felt bad for the clone that she killed. And not a little pissed off that she didn't really seem affected by it. I would say that this shows how little she learned from Storm over Ryloth, but in fact she haslearned. Clones are expendable. I suppose you could also say she just panicked, since the ship is supposed to be a safe place (unlike a battlefield), but the way she and Barriss BOTH kept freaking out at the non-wormed clones with lightsabers on struck me as a bit OOC.

But I did think that the discussion about peacetime, the Jedi, and Anakin was one of the high points of this episode and probably the season for me. I really, really hope they keep up with that.

I thought Anakin's slip into the Dark Side here was quite well-done... and sort of confirms the theory that Darth is smarter. Or perhaps not smarter, but he was certainly very cold, calm, and in-control when he started choking Poggle. Interesting that dark!Anakin is a lot less wild than light!Anakin is.

And I'm wondering if they're going to end every Ahsoka-Barriss team-up episode with them unconscious in each other's arms.

So...basically Anakin decides to go with physical torture instead of mental and psychological torture. That's what makes him a bad Jedi.

Well duh. If they're not physically injured, of COURSE it's not torture! Absolutely....

Edited at 2009-12-18 06:33 am (UTC)
fialleril: Ashlafialleril on December 18th, 2009 08:27 pm (UTC)
THAT PLOTHOLE WAS SO MASSIVE, IT COULD CONSUME THE PLANET VULCAN ALDERAAN.

I didn't find the freaking out at non-wormed clones OOC, actually. I think it was very consistent with the kind of jumpiness and hypersensitivity Ahsoka's been exhibiting for a while. It's also a classic startle response, which I think makes a lot of sense for both Ahsoka and Barriss.

Yeah, dark!Anakin does have a tendency to think things through more carefully. His anger gives him focus?

If they're not physically injured, of COURSE it's not torture! Absolutely....

Just ask Dick Cheney! He'll tell you all about it!
Eileen the variably sane: The Children ❧ NGEcompass_ink on December 18th, 2009 11:33 pm (UTC)
Hm... I can see how it'd make sense for Ahsoka, but I'd seen Barriss as having a little more of the Jedi-serenity (since it's sort of set up that Luminara/Barriss are the approved kind of Jedi and Anakin/Ahsoka are the mavericks). But then again that could be exactly why she panics along with Ahsoka and keeps her saber at the guys' throats--she's more passive than Ahsoka so she follows her lead, knowing that Ahsoka has far more battle experience than she does. And getting shot at on your own ship is pretty damn scary.

I think his anger does give him focus, actually... usually anger makes someone irrational and more prone to flying off the handle, but impulsive is Anakin's ground state of being anyway. Kind of like when he's not angry, his energy goes all over the place, but when something pisses him off it all focuses into a narrow channel. Once he steps out of the moral boundaries he can go in a straight line. And the war makes it very easy for him to do that, of his own volition like you say.

Edited at 2009-12-18 11:34 pm (UTC)
Gwinna: clonesgwinna487 on December 19th, 2009 03:05 am (UTC)
*hijacks thread*

I was a bit surprised at how unbothered they were over killing that one clone too. You would think that, since they realized the clones were possessed (...I think they had realized it by that point), they would have tried not to kill them. Or at least felt bad about the need to kill them.

And I always found it interesting that Anakin seemd to have more self-control as Vader. Considering that supposedly the Jedi are all about self-control whereas the Sith give way to their passions.
scrap_blitz: (not solid snakes)scrap_blitz on December 18th, 2009 06:45 pm (UTC)
Haha, you saw it!

I was rather impressed with the bit where Ahsoka couldn't sleep because it was too quiet and then they go have their talk, too. I always find it sad about the Jedi, and any real life counterparts -- being a peacekeeper inevitably means law enforcement, which inevitably means violence, doesn't it?

I liked the bit about Anakin not being able to survive without war, too. I probably play too much Metal Gear Solid, but that's always an interesting theme, how people who are raised with war don't really know what to do without it.

As for the interrogation of Cad Bane, I wouldn't give the show so little credit as to say they don't consider it a form of torture. (I'm just hinging that off of Ahsoka's little look of terror during that scene. She clearly doesn't like what's going on, and she's the sympathetic character.) I think they do a decent job at showing both sides of the torture debate, and maybe it's better that they don't resolve it, because it just doesn't have an easy answer in real life.

I also think that re: Anakin's plans: maybe he was planning to revolutionize the Jedi the way he... totally failed to, and Luke managed. I mean, it's pretty obvious that his idea about the ideal Jedi isn't conventional -- mainly, that he thinks being a Jedi and having attachments are compatible. Can't remember exactly what he said at the end, but I think it implied that that was why Ahsoka only tried to talk Bariss out of it -- she was just more attached to Bariss than to the rest of the guys, so her attempts to wake Bariss up were more out of desperation at the prospect of killing her than out of actual expectation of success.
fialleril: trauma boyfialleril on December 18th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
I definitely liked that scene. Possibly the first thing I've really liked this whole season.

I probably play too much Metal Gear Solid, but that's always an interesting theme, how people who are raised with war don't really know what to do without it.

It's not just a Metal Gear Solid thing; it's a real world thing.

I think the show's creators did want us to consider Cad Bane's treatment creepy, but it's also clear that, in this episode, they're saying that the Jedi already tried all of the non-squicky methods of getting Poggle to talk, and one of those was mind tricks. Now Anakin is going to try the squicky method. But...mind tricks are squicky.

Maybe Anakin really did have all sorts of great plans. Who can say? And that's my point. We haven't heard anything about Anakin's thoughts on or plans for the future of the Jedi Order. This is the first we've heard that he even has any, and it's anyone's guess what they are. So the foreshadowing of ROTS actually overpowers whatever Ahsoka's real meaning in universe might have been, because...we have no idea.
scrap_blitzscrap_blitz on December 18th, 2009 11:53 pm (UTC)
It's not just a Metal Gear Solid thing; it's a real world thing.

I know.

I think they consider mind-tricks something like the polygraph. It's stressing and kind of invasive, and you never know who can beat it, but it's relatively okay as an interrogation tool. Though honestly, it's not as if heroes in kids' shows don't regularly beat answers out of bad guys physically either, so I don't think Anakin's squicky methods are that squicky, more that he's using his Psychic Powers to do it, which is kind of underhanded. Like how people who know black-belt karate are always considered armed in court cases? I don't know.

Haha, this series is basically ALL foreshadowing for ROTS, isn't it? Poor Ahsoka.
fialleril: Chopperfialleril on December 19th, 2009 05:34 am (UTC)
Actually, I think mind tricks are far more disturbing than polygraphs. A polygraph can only measure physiological responses to determine whether a person is lying or not; if they are, the test can't force them to reveal the truth. A mind trick, on the other hand, can force information out of an unwilling person.
scrap_blitzscrap_blitz on December 19th, 2009 04:51 pm (UTC)
Depends on what questions you ask during the polygraph test, doesn't it? Y/N answers can narrow a lot of things down.

That said, I'm not disagreeing, only saying that in such a situation, the writers probably think that forcing somebody to tell the truth when it can save people is marginally less bad than beating it out of them. Harry Potter does the exact same thing, albeit acknowledging more blatantly that it has ethical concerns; then again, Harry Potter readers are, on average, older than the Clone Wars target audience, and (presumably) understand that lying is a choice, not just something the teachers at elementary school say is bad. Which is pretty bizarre, because I assume the idea of Clone Wars is that you've seen RotS, and the target audience for that is definitely not small kids.
fialleril: katabasisfialleril on December 20th, 2009 10:27 pm (UTC)
In that case, the writers would be patently wrong: it's been show that generally, mental/psychological torture has much longer lasting effects than physical torture (although much physical torture can involve/become psychological torture, as well). I think a lot of media uses the practice of torture as a kind of deus ex machina to get information quickly, without going through the tedious process it would take to get that information without resorting to torture. Instead, you can just show a scene implying that torture happened, and bam! You've got your info with minimal need for storytelling.

Expect there's a couple of problems with that scenario. One of the biggest ones is that it means torture in media always works. (At least, when it's used on bad guys. Of course the good guys never talk.) In reality, even leaving aside all of the moral issues, it's a plain fact that torture doesn't always yield any information, and quite often even when it does, that information is wrong, out-of-date, or otherwise useless. And yet in our media in general, and Clone Wars in particular, torture always yields good information.

Our media feeds off of our culture, but it also feeds into. And it's precisely because, as you say, this is a show for children, that I'm so disturbed by the implications of all these torture scenes.
Gwinna: Clone Wars!Anakingwinna487 on December 19th, 2009 02:46 am (UTC)
Who is controlling the worms?! That is exactly what I was wondering! (The clones even started speaking Geonosian when they were possessed, which struck me as kind of weird and improbable no matter how you look at it.) The only thing I can think of is that the queen had a successor who took over when she died. But still, I shouldn't have to come up with the explanation myself.

The conversation between Ahsoka and Barriss in the cafeteria was my favorite part. It was a pleasant surprise for the show to bring up the fact that the padawans don't really know anything other than war. Plus the question of the difference between peacekeepers and warriors. It's also interesting to see how much Ahsoka notices about Anakin; I think it's the first time she's commented on him to someone else.

I liked Ahsoka better in this episode than I sometimes do. In my mind Barriss is supposed to be Anakin's contemporary, but I still enjoy watching the friendship between the two.

So...basically Anakin decides to go with physical torture instead of mental and psychological torture. That's what makes him a bad Jedi.

Wow, good point.

ETA: Wait, is there some view other than that Anakin starts to turn to the Dark Side all on his own?

Edited at 2009-12-19 02:56 am (UTC)
fialleril: pro patria morifialleril on December 19th, 2009 05:46 am (UTC)
Even if there was a new Queen (which I kind of doubt, personally, but that may just be my penchant for the tragic), I really don't think her influence could reach across lightyears. So the essential question of who's controlling the worms remains. Unless the worm that entered the clone on Geonosis had specific instructions at the time, and just continues to follow those once it gets out into space. But if that were the case, then we'd have to assign a pretty high level of intelligence and self-awareness to these worms, which I don't think the show's creators intended.

In my mind Barriss is supposed to be Anakin's contemporary

It's not just in your mind. In the movies (and the previous Clone Wars show), she was. I have no idea why they decided to deage her, instead of just using a different character if they wanted to give Ahsoka a contemporary.

Wait, is there some view other than that Anakin starts to turn to the Dark Side all on his own?

Ha ha ha! I could envy you your blissful ignorance of the fandom in this. Honestly, it's pretty rare to meet a fan who doesn't think that Palpatine is the only reason for Anakin's fall.
Gwinna: Anakin - AotCgwinna487 on December 20th, 2009 09:44 pm (UTC)
I didn't realize Barriss was in the movies! Did I miss her appearance? I did see her in the old Clone Wars, though I mostly know her from one of my favorite fanfics. But yeah, I would have preferred if they had created another padawan Ahsoka's age.

Ha ha ha! I could envy you your blissful ignorance of the fandom in this. Honestly, it's pretty rare to meet a fan who doesn't think that Palpatine is the only reason for Anakin's fall.

Lol, I guess I've only seen the intelligent part of the fandom? I mostly stay away from TFN and those kind of places. But to me it seems clear from the movies that Anakin was headed in that direction even without Palpatine's help (the most obvious example being the Tusken massacre, which Palpatine had nothing to do with). And saying that Palpatine was the only reason almost makes it sound as though Anakin wasn't responsible for his own choices. :/
fialleril: Barriss Offeefialleril on December 20th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC)
Yeah, she's just a background character in AOTC, but she's there! *uses movie!Barriss icon* And she doesn't look 14 to me!

Oh well, the common fandom theory is that Palpatine actually was behind the Tuskens abducting Shmi. (As though that somehow makes Anakin's resulting actions Palpatine's fault, and not his own.) From what I can tell, the whole goal of a large chunk of the fandom is to absolve Anakin of all guilt, because he was manipulated and he "did it for love." Ugh.
veriond: team failveriond on December 19th, 2009 07:41 pm (UTC)
I am still disappointed that the clone that they stabbed didn't come shambling back later in the episode. Come on people, you are already doing zombies.

I am also massively disappointed that torturing Poggle worked. If the Jedi's big mental torture didn't work, I don't think Anakin's physical torture should have. So far all example of torture have lead to successfully getting useful information. And I think that is the more disturbing part.

I looked it up and it is the same guy doing Kit Fisto's voice. Maybe he just forgot how he did it before since it have been so long since he was in an episode?
fialleril: team failfialleril on December 20th, 2009 10:20 pm (UTC)
Zombie!clones would have been awesome indeed. :(

You make a very good point about how torture always works in this show. I think it's a general problem in a lot of media: partly sloppy story telling and the need to resolve a standoff quickly with a kind of deus ex machina, which the torture becomes. But I don't think that can explain it completely. There's definitely a disturbing note of "This is how it works in the real world, right? These are the times when it's justified."
veriond: his revolution brings all the jedi to thveriond on December 21st, 2009 12:25 am (UTC)
Aside from the cheep deus ex machina to get the info to stop zombie!clones, I see no logical reason why Poggle, who successfully resisted the same torture that was done to Cad Bane, would talk when confronted with Anakin's physical torture unless he was really adverse physical pain. And since he had the willpower to resist three Jedi working together to break into his mind, I think he would be able to resist Anakin.

Couldn't they have had him lie at least? Say the worms were on Dantooine? Poggle's resistance to the mind probe was considerable. Perhaps the Jedi should have threatened to blow up his planet. Maybe that is what Anakin actually did.
fialleril: team failfialleril on December 21st, 2009 02:12 am (UTC)
This is Star Wars. Your Earth logic need not apply.

Also, here is a blog that I think will be relevant to your interests!
veriond: curses foiled againveriond on December 21st, 2009 02:53 am (UTC)
Nah. I am, like, really stuck on this Poggle = Leia idea now. It is part of my idealized version of the episode, including not letting the audience know the clones had mind worms right from the start and zombie!clones.

That blog does appear to be relevant to my interests.
fialleril: I am Troy Davisfialleril on December 21st, 2009 03:32 am (UTC)
Well, idealized versions of the episodes are always good! In fact, it would be pretty cool if you wanted to write one sometime!

I thought you might like that. :)
( 27 tales told — tell a story )